Is That a BlockChain in Your Pocket? @HugoFeiler of @minima_global

by Dave Michels

This digital asset space is experiencing the fastest adoption of any technology in all of recorded history. It’s currently growing at twice the speed of the Internet. With 114 million users today, it’s likely to get to a billion users by 2024. It also threatens to be the largest (and fastest) redistribution of wealth ever.

This week El Salvador embraced Bitcoin as legal tender. It’s amazing! It threatens to tumble centuries old institutions in every country, and has done so naturally. Without a leader or centralized structure, and predominately with open source technology. Bitcoin alone has grown into a $1T ecosystem. But how does this crypto phenomenon affect enterprise comms?

That’s the trillion dollar question. It can and it will in many ways. The crypto phenomenon is a new, decentralized way to accomplish trusted interactions. IT can involve money, but that’s just scratching the surface. However, crypto gets complex very quickly. There’s a lot of routes and a lot of rabbit holes. The Minima project is one such example. A blockchain optimized for smartphones.

That means even more nodes that Bitcoin are ready for use – use for what? Probably something related to smartphones – that can be apps or mobile network carriers. In other words, this could impact anyone that reads TalkingPointz. Check out this conversation with Hugo to learn more about Minima and Android-based blockchains.


Dave Michels 0:12
Welcome to talking to us today, we’ll be talking with Pico filer of the minima crypto asset. But before that Evan, I got to share with you I read this article about Ted lasso on Apple TV. Have you ever seen that show Heaven,

Evan Kirstel 0:25
I love Ted lasso. It’s one of my favorite shows favorite seasons.

Dave Michels 0:31
That star strain show because it’s not about football. It’s, it’s actually about just being nice, which is a whole nother subject. But what I wanted to get to was apparently, a lot of people who really like season one, are really upset about season two. And this article that I read said that the difference is streaming on demand, back to back, or and having to wait every week to watch the next episode. And the author was basically saying that if you have to wait every week, the little things that annoy you, they don’t bother you when you just consume it all in one weekend.

Evan Kirstel 1:02
That’s funny. I’m a binge eater I enjoy not only binge on food, but bingeing on Netflix, watching the back to back to back, and then sitting back in a giant state of depression once the entire 12 episodes have been consumed, but you know, to each his own, but yeah, I love binge watching.

Dave Michels 1:21
Do you like Ted Lasso? Are you finding season two different than season one,

Evan Kirstel 1:24
season two is great. I mean, that whole character that the way they’d filmed in the UK, like with real people in real settings, and almost quasi real footballers. It’s really well done. And I just love a lot of the apple shows. In fact, not on Apple, but Netflix, you have to watch the chair. It’s a new series. That’s Come on about a university chair, Sandra Oh, is the main

Dave Michels 1:49
thing that

Evan Kirstel 1:51
that’s really well done. So

Dave Michels 1:52
yeah, more enjoyable, so too, but my observation is he doesn’t ever seem to coach anything. He’s a real nice guy. Very pleasant to be around. I’ve never seen him actually coach.

Evan Kirstel 2:02
Well, this is actually a what we call television program. So it is a fantasy creation. But speaking of fantasy creations, and cryptocurrency. next guests.

Dave Michels 2:13
All right,

god 2:14
TalkingHeadz. It is a semi monthly podcast with interviews with the top movers and shakers and enterprise communications and collaboration. Your hosts are Dave Michaels and Evan gerstel, both of which offer extraordinary services including research, analysis and social media marketing. You can find them on Twitter, LinkedIn, or at talking That’s points with the Z and Devin curse That’s kr STL. We have with us Hugo filer. It’s a German name for a British person who is currently in Switzerland at but more importantly, he’s the co founder and CEO of the minima baselayer blockchain protocol. Welcome, Hugo. Thank you. Very good to be here, David.

Evan Kirstel 3:03
We had a lot of questions, and we’re thoroughly confused. So Dave, I think you have some questions lined up.

Dave Michels 3:09
And whether you admit that we’re thoroughly confused, Evan, because you, of course, are a crypto expert with your own coin. So we’ve got competition here. And one of the things we’re going to try to get to the bottom of this podcast is if I should trade my b2b coins for minimum coins. So let’s start off with that actually, what is it? Is it a coin? Is it a crypto asset? Is it a blockchain? What do you describe a currency? What? How do you describe minima once you give us a little introduction?

Hugo Feiler 3:35
Yeah, no, I mean, I say blockchain is such a new area that is often very confusing. And in order to really understand it, you have to get down the rabbit hole. Don’t worry, I’m going to try not to take everyone down too much of a rabbit hole on this one. So minima is the world’s first mobile native blockchain. So it’s like Bitcoin, but instead of running on huge centralized server farms, minima, runs in full on mobile phones. And so by doing that, we’re creating a completely decentralized network for value and information transfer, enabling people to exchange anything with anyone online. You know, you asked about whether it’s a coin, whether it’s a digital asset, effectively, were a base layer protocol, like Bitcoin or like aetherium. But so we have a coin, but we can also create tokens as well. So we can create smart contracts. So not just monitoring network but also information there as well basically,

Dave Michels 4:28
is the minimal referring to the length of the blockchain or the amount of computational power or something else. I know that tell was taken. I was really upset about the tail coin because I kind of wanted that Evan rd, grad b2b as this coin. So what is the minimum name represent?

Hugo Feiler 4:48
Yeah, the name minima is Latin for tiny so it’s very, very small, which means that saying the entire blockchain fits in full on a mobile phone. If you imagine in comparison to Bitcoin Bitcoin is about 350 gigabytes of data and ever growing, whereas minima will stay at about a gigabyte of data in size, so it can fit easily on a mobile phone. That’s the critical part of it. The reason why, you know, actually, I mean, going back to where minima was first sort of created. So my co founder and tech genius to guy called Paddy, is a full stack coder, and he’s a libertarian through and through the idea of Bitcoin and blockchain really appealed to him for this sort of the idea of decentralizing the processing and validation of online transactions with a universal ledger that was public and transparent the removal of the need for trusted third parties or the middlemen, he was running a mining rig on his computer at home back in 2012. But he soon became disillusioned because of collusion with it, because the competitive nature of Bitcoin mining meant that there was always an incentive to look for economies of scale to earn greater fees, or to keep increasing your compute power to keep mining. And this led to, you know, a centralization of the miners on the network. And so effectively, you know, we’d swap one set of middlemen, the banks, which was what blockchain was designed to sort of remove the need for with another set of middlemen which of the minus A so Paddy wanted to sort of remove any need for the user to rely on anyone else to participate in the network. But in order to do that, you had to find a way that to make it possible for everyone to be able to participate as an equal on the network to process and to validate the transactions. And the only device that everyone has is a mobile phone. So he says it’s about working out how to minimize everything so that it can all fit on a minute mo a mobile phone, which is where we are today.

Dave Michels 6:48
So clarify what’s actually on the phone because I, I have a few coins and I have them on my phone. But that’s the phone wallet. What are you referring to what’s on the phone, actually.

Hugo Feiler 7:00
So well, if you imagine, you know, blockchain works by having miners who process the transactions. And then you have validating nodes that validate those transactions, if you imagine them, so you have the validation and the processing. And most of the processing is done on nice computer farms, for Bitcoin. And then the validation is also done on computers on that. Whereas with minima, what we’ve done is effectively the phone, both processes and validates the transactions with a wallet as well. So you don’t just have a wallet, you’re actually creating the blockchain, with your phone, as you process it. So effectively, in the background on your phone, you’ll be processing the transactions, and you’ll be validating them. So absolutely everything happens on the phone itself. So there’s no you don’t need to rely on anyone else. Any other third parties to create the blockchain. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I can talk a little bit in more detail about how we do that. And again, I’ll try I’ll keep it as top line as brief as possible. But again, I think using Bitcoin as an example it because although it’s still pretty new to most people, Bitcoin is sort of the one everyone knows about. So if you imagine there are three key things that we do to achieve this type of minimization. The first one is, instead of competing miners crunching away on more and more powerful computers, minima relies on the cooperation of users with their phones, each doing a tiny bit of processing on their phones, that then gets added together to create the block in the blockchain. So that’s the first part. So we go from a competitive system to a cooperative one, a bit like if everyone puts $1 or a pound into a lottery, then the end prize is a million bands as a huge prize if you add it all together. And that’s where you take it basically, the second part is that the bitcoins breakthrough as the concept of a public ledger, that everyone can see every transaction, making it immutable or transparent. But obviously, you know, that is a very large database. And currently, that’s 350, gigabytes and growing. And there are phones that are sort of able to store that a few Samsung created a phone last year. But again, it doesn’t do much else, apart from being a validator on the network for Bitcoin is okay, but it’s not that useful. What minima does instead is it’s designed so that everyone keeps the spine of the ledger which is very small. And then everyone keeps their own page of that data. So I keep my data at my page of data. You Dave, keep your page of data and you haven’t keep your page of data. So we only keep our own data, but it fits perfectly into the book. So all the transactions are there. But everyone, every user only needs to look after a very small fraction of the overall ledger size Have you sort of been so keeps the amount of data that we need to keep on the phone very, very small, but it still keeps the immutability of the ledger intact. So rather than having a 350 To gigabyte and growing database requirement minima has about a gigabyte data and that won’t ever grow. And the reason it won’t grow is the third point. And the third part of it is that instead of keeping all of the historical transactions, we just keep the proof that their data existed. So that means that you don’t have to store everything you just need to create create the proof that the data existed. So you still have all the benefits of an immutable record of transactions that’s completely decentralized. But it keeps it in very, very small space so that it all fits neatly onto a mobile phone. And because it fits onto a mobile phone, everyone has an equal. So with a with a simple app download, everyone has an entire blockchain on their phone and can interact in a network as an equal with anyone else and exchange value very straightforwardly.

Evan Kirstel 10:55
So that’s pretty interesting. So your phone base crypto, and there’s an app involved. So when will the app be ready for deployment? When do you see yourself going live with users?

Hugo Feiler 11:08
Well, so we are we’re already live. So we are in test net at this stage. And we’re due to go into main net in the middle of next year. So we already have over 3000 users on the network, who are all running completes constructing and validating nodes on the network. And we are looking to grow to 100,000 by the end of this year and a million by the middle of next year. And to put that into context. Bitcoin has 10,000 validating nodes, where we will have a million validating and constructing nodes on the network. So we will be 1000 times more distributed than Bitcoin when we launch. And how does one get the service or minima on the phone? Do you have to have to go through the app store? Or is there some sort of sideload to get your service running?

Evan Kirstel 12:01
I mean, do you need apple and Google’s approval to do this?

Hugo Feiler 12:05
Well, no, I mean, mobile, we’re running on Android, and also via jar, so you can run it on your computer, we are working on a solution for Apple, which effectively will piggyback on Android users. So they work together. Because at the moment, Apple doesn’t allow applications to run permanently in the background. And for minima to function, you need to be running the app in the background constantly. That is the process that we’re going through. So Android allows that to happen. Apple doesn’t as yet. But we have a solution to connect Apple users with the network via Android and via desktop computers.

Evan Kirstel 12:47
Interesting. So David is finally a use case for your Android phone, you’re perfect for you. Now in the US, we have an emerging really hot network called helium, which is a 5g based distributed cryptocurrency based network, I have an order for the hotspot, hundreds of 1000s of folks are really excited about deploying it. Is this a similar concept? But instead of running on the hotspot, it’ll run on the phone?

Hugo Feiler 13:14
Yes, I mean, there is there is absolutely the agenda is similar in that what we want to do is create a network where you can actually sort of create that value transfer layer across all devices. And as you say, as you quite rightly say, haven’t, you know, the big difference is that you’ve got an order a bespoke piece of equipment that you need in order to run that and you will get paid in order to you get paid back in order to put the investment in to buy it, but and you’ll also then officer then be able to create the network. Whereas what we’ve done is we’ve taken it one step further, and made it that much more convenient, and that much more easily accessible, because you literally just need a smartphone, to create the network and to run it basically. So yeah, we’re taking it that one step further. And when I guess that is the benefit of coming into sort of, you know, a relatively new industry, but having seen all of the things that have been created so far, we’re almost taking it to the extreme of decentralization, where literally, everyone is capable of doing it, you know, I mean, if you want to run a Bitcoin full node, you have to have almost a degree in computer science and some pretty advanced technology. with helium, you have to order bespoke equipment. Whereas a minima, you literally just need a mobile phone.

Dave Michels 14:35
I’m still trying to get my head around this Android thing. I thought Satoshi declared that all blockchains have to run on AWS. No,

Hugo Feiler 14:43
I mean, basically with this joke, I

gave turns. Yeah, no. I mean, this is the thing. I mean, what we’re what we’re looking at is this is the minimum we’ll be able to run on the SPS and VPNs and therefore the network will be created. So that’s literally anyone will be able to participate in this. So they say in crypto distribution is destiny. So how do you get this in the hands of those millions of smartphone users? I mean, what is your strategy to scale beyond where you are today? And what is it? Yeah, the utility and the excitement about mining that you’re touching on? Are there some other use cases that might catch my attention? So So Well, firstly, I mean, the actually very important point to make is that minima doesn’t pay a fee for mining, what you’re actually ends up doing is that you actually, the reason why people will use minnamurra is for the utility that the blockchain gives them basically. And that’s very, the reason that is very important is because as soon as you put a fee into the process, then it becomes a competitive game. And people start centralizing in order to try and get economies of scale to earn greater fees. So if you want to if as you as you talk about the destiny for blockchain is decentralization, if you want to keep it completely decentralized, you have to take away the fee element because otherwise that will over time centralize. So it is all about utility, we are approaching it from two directions. So bottom up direction, from sort of the users upwards, and then top down with enterprise and the telecoms vertical. So bottom up, we have obviously, you know, there’s a huge swathe of crypto communities out there. And we are putting aside we have a we have a fixed supply of a billion minimum coins. And we’re putting aside 30% of the total supply towards a sort of a two year process of incentivizing people to run the node. So we’re going to get from 3000 to a million in the middle of next year, by paying people a minimum per day, in order to run a node and to be part of the network at the same time. And obviously, you know, there will be multitude of developers work on it to create decentralized applications on top of that, which might be chat apps that are completely decentralized. And at the same time, what we’re also doing is approaching the telecommunications vertical, because what they have and what we need, and what we have, and what they need is sort of beautifully entwined in the they have lots of users with lots of devices. And what we can offer them is also something very useful to them, because they have a, you know, an existing network problem. This is the, you know, the legacy backend accounting infrastructure that has been built up over the last 30 years is no longer fit for purpose. It’s a complicated system, with many challenges, including slow speed to market building accuracies fraud, the need for manual workarounds, and all of these stifle innovation. So with minimal as a tokenization solution with a minima, running a node on every customer’s device, minima creates a direct transactional link between the telco and their customer.

Dave Michels 18:08
I get what you’re thinking there, I get your logic that hey, they’re, they’re kind of on legacy architecture, maybe they need something new. But isn’t that also the problem? I mean, how do you convince a company that’s, you know, the definition of legacy architecture, to embrace something like crypto assets and blockchains? And, you know, mobile based distribution model? That’s a big leap?

Evan Kirstel 18:30
Yeah, they’re all about centralized power and control, right, which is antithesis of decentralized blockchain? Absolutely. No, no, there is,

Hugo Feiler 18:37
you know, there is definitely definitely a lot of pushback and suspicion and confusion in this area. But the beauty about what we’re creating is that it’s effectively because every user will, if once a user is running a minimum a node on their, on their mobile phone and turns them into a server. So effectively, you’re creating an a completely new infrastructure that can sit outside of a telcos legacy systems, it doesn’t have to disrupt it, it can just be an incremental element of functionality. So through an API connection, we can effectively connect the telco back end without disrupting anything existing to a completely new almost side infrastructure, which is created by their users, because they’re all running the nodes. And once you have that infrastructure, then you can effectively create a completely new infrastructure and architecture, whereby you’re creating a direct transactional link between the telco and their users. That allows them to once you have the nodes connected, then effectively you have a sort of tokenization system where you can, you can create features that are you know, users can buy sell share data, they can own rewards, make purchases, as you would with any of the other tokens that you currently have, it just adds that element. So for example, if you have

Dave Michels 20:06
kind of a long theoretical explanation, how do you, I can see the conversation with the telco, they’re like, well, we could we could charge our customers now for services, what’s in it for them? What? Why would a telco embrace this?

Hugo Feiler 20:19
So I think, you know, the what’s in it for them is that, you know, they want to keep their customers happy. That is something they want to create.

Dave Michels 20:26
Well, there’s no evidence of that whatsoever, by the way.

Hugo Feiler 20:31
Okay, yeah, the C suite want to keep them happy. But the legacy architecture isn’t able to do that, if that makes sense. If you know, for example, if you wanted to, in theory, if you wanted to have a loyalty program where you wanted to gift someone, a Starbucks coffee, for being a loyal customer, but obviously, you know, if you get that and you don’t like coffee, then it’s like a pretty useless gift. Whereas if you get that gift from your telco as a token to be able to spend in Starbucks, if you can just give that to your friend, if you can give that to your friend or your family, that becomes a sort of almost a marketing tool between a gift from the telco to someone else, and then they go, Okay, well, actually, I got given a Starbucks coffee from this telco isn’t that great. And I think that what we’re finding is that the ability that the tokenize hat, the tokens have, you know, the ability that blockchain gives people to transfer value and data between users without having to know who they are. So if you imagine, for example, in the UK, we have the red telephone boxes, you remember the telephone booths, where in the old days, before mobile phones, digitization, whenever there was analog, you know, the national network operator would have a phone box is everywhere. And if you wanted to make a phone call, you take your 10 Pence, or 10 cents apiece, and you put it in the phone box, and it would mechanically check the validity. And if it was genuine grant your network access for a defined period of time, and the box didn’t care who you are, who your family was, what your credit history was, who’d given you the money for the phone call, it just gave you access to the network. So in many ways, is much the same open system, where effectively with the birth of digital and mobile phones and postepay, suddenly, there was a need to credit check people and then lots of reconciliation. So you couldn’t just give a swap cash between people to get access. Whereas now you’re going back to that almost where effectively, if you’re running on node on your phone, and you want to gain network access, you need to post a token for the network, or you can spend your token. And when you want to get that new access, you can then do that. But you can also give that token to someone else. So it’s almost like everyone suddenly has a phone box again. So you’re going to that level of flexibility and opportunity again, and this is the thing you know, I’ve worked before coming into blockchain. I worked in marketing communication advertising for two decades. And I was working with the likes of Vodafone, British Telecom, and as a marketing agency working with marketing departments, you know, we were giving great, we were working on great ideas, great concepts, great propositions for customers, and say, wouldn’t it be great if we could do this or that and they get very excited, but then they’d go to their engineering teams and say, we just can’t achieve that level of granularity between gifting between friends and family or something like that. Whereas what you can do with blockchain is you can create that level of simplicity of transferring value and data between individuals who don’t know who they are. And as you quite rightly said, they’ve ever actually know, up until now, it’s all been about control, the more control you can have people, the better but actually, in this new frontier of the world, is all actually about how much power can you give to your customers, because they will benefit from that and they will give you back loyalty as a result of you making their lives easier.

Evan Kirstel 23:55
So David’s, it’s exactly like my rally b2b coin. I’ve given you dozens of coins and turned into 1000s of dollars. And we both have basically you exchange value without ever exchanging money.

Dave Michels 24:09
So brilliant. There actually is I was thinking that Evan, there actually is a lot of similarities because the idea of your coin is so that people like yourself influencers can engage more directly with your community. And that’s what he was talking about with the telephone companies. The difference really is that Hugo actually has a telecom angle to his I’ve been looking all over to find a payphone that will take your b2b coins and I I can’t find one yet, but I’m still loving.

Evan Kirstel 24:35
Well, you know, what Dave really needs is a coin that works on fax machines and desk phones, because maybe we can scale down that blockchain to work on like a tiny, tiny, tiny microprocessor. But this is super exciting. It sounds like it’s so innovative. It’s more for the and this is my commentary, t mobile’s of the world, then the at&t and Verizon you know, companies that want to be super customer centric and innovative and creative with new programs and services versus the old ptts, or British telecoms world is that is that probably right? No, I

Hugo Feiler 25:11
think that is definitely Right. I mean, I think that is definitely for customer centric telecoms companies, the ones that literally want to put their customers at the heart of what they do, and trust their customers to stay loyal, if they give them something, then they will get something back, you know, the reciprocity of it, I think is is a critical element. And it allows them, you know, and there are lots of other areas, you know, I mean, I think that loyalty and gifting, what we’re finding is, you know, our original vision for the telcos was to be able to sort of rip out their existing sort of reconciliation infrastructure, and literally just sort of start doing that. But as you guys quite rightly pointed out, you know, that is way too far in advance. And what we’re actually looking at with the delta is, is much more sort of incremental revenue, and loyalty and gifting is, is a key part of that. And you have the ability to have peer to peer sharing. So you can allow customers to send loyalty points between friends or families without supervision, and also the low total cost of ownership, you know, can you cut maintenance costs by pushing the network management to the minimum nodes themselves, you’re gaining something almost not not for free, but you’re gaining something at a very, very low cost and low disruption levels, and you’re actually giving your customers much more power, basically. And that is something that we’ll find is, is increasingly the way to take these relationships forward.

Dave Michels 26:36
Other than the Android angle, there’s nothing really here that’s telecom specific. I mean, is that now that is true? Is your solution equally suitable for any type of company that has a large base of mobile phone users? Like, let’s say, zoom? Or somebody? Yeah, no, absolutely. I

Hugo Feiler 26:53
mean, I think well, we were actually talking to a large UK supermarket at the moment, again, so again, not a not a telco, but obviously, you know, the telco and go, as you say, is not crucial. It’s in the fact that you need a mobile phone. So you know, and that’s the beauty of where we’re going, you know, the mobile phone, whether you’re, if you’re buying a ticket for a game, for, you know, for a football match, for example, you know, I mean, the ability for the, what you’re doing is you’re connecting the Creator with the end user, so if a creator is a football stadium, then you are able to deliver a ticket direct to the user, without having to go through middlemen, suppliers, you’re also able So for example, if you bought a football ticket on your phone, but you couldn’t go anymore, in the old days, the only way to really try and get rid of it, or to try and sell it on would be probably to take it to a ticket out, who would then sort of wouldn’t pay you their price, and then would also rip someone off when they wanted to then pay them. Whereas actually, what you could then do is have a marketplace where you can actually sell your ticket, and it would be completely immutable. And you couldn’t use it, you couldn’t fake it. So it would literally be on your phone and you could sell it to someone else for a fair price. And they would have a guarantee that that ticket would then be valid when it gets when you get to the gate and you want to redeem it basically. So there’s lots of areas where having a moat having a blockchain on your mobile is very, very valuable. Whether it is a football matches or whether it’s in the supermarket, or whether it is any kind of any kind of transaction, literally, you’re putting the power of blockchain into the mobile phone.

Evan Kirstel 28:38
And speaking of the phone, do you think the phone makers themselves whether it’s apple or Xiaomi, or Samsung will will start incorporating blockchain natively on the phone? And could that be minima too?

Hugo Feiler 28:53
Absolutely. I mean, I think that already, there are a number of phone companies that are incorporating definitely, you know, blockchain, blockchain wallets, on the phones as a way of sort of securely keeping hold of people’s tokens and value from the blockchain. So yeah, it’s definitely the natural next step, that if you have, you know, it can be downloaded an app. And the reason why we like it to be downloaded as an app is that it’s just sort of device agnostic. But definitely the end game would be that devices would come preloaded with the minimum blockchain. And again, you know, the the end goal is that becomes the new ubiquitous blockchain with everyone you know, if you can run a full blockchain on your mobile phone, why would you use any other blockchain? That’s our sort of vision for for minima?

Evan Kirstel 29:41
A talk about Bitcoin itself? Is that transferable? Will that be traded on an exchange and when can I get my hands on some?

Hugo Feiler 29:51
Yes or no? Absolutely. So basically, it will be I mean, I’d say we we will, it will be traded on exchange once we get to our main net launch, so So as I said, so our main net launch is due middle of next year. And that will be we will launch it when we get to a million users on the network. At that point mean, we’re already sort of in discussion with a number of exchanges, in order to sort of be listed when we launch. And so and we will do probably a pre sale event before, shortly before that, if you keep your eye out for minima, and there will definitely be opportunity to buy minima, and to participate in the network itself.

Evan Kirstel 30:28
Well, hopefully minima goes to maxima. So that would be fabulous. Now, a lot of people looking back and crypto, we’re kind of burned by the whole Ico experience. I’m quite excited by your technology and platform, but how are you different than and not, you know, an initial coin offering. And in that sense,

Hugo Feiler 30:47
I guess if you look back at the sort of the the initial coin offerings in 17, and 18, it was a frenzy. And it was pretty much a free for all. And it was a very early, early stages. And there were lots of projects that didn’t really have any real fundamental credibility. And yet, you know, you put it was a bit like, boom, you know, you put on a bad business idea, and everyone sort of threw money at it. It was a bit like that with a lot of projects. Are there the you know, there are, there are some very good projects that sort of came out of the ashes of that period. And they’re doing very, very well.

Dave Michels 31:21
Speaking of frenzy, I’m just trying to figure out that NF t craze is going on right now. But I just realized the killer app, the killer app for you, is that can take a picture on my smartphone, make it an NF t Yeah, right there on the spot.

Hugo Feiler 31:35
That’s absolutely exactly right. That’s exactly right. So effectively, you’re absolutely right. So So I think, you know, the NF t craze at the moment is crazy. And it is exciting, but crazy. But I think that you know, the future for us is absolutely what you say Dave is that effectively the future will be UBS take a photo on your phone, and you will be able to turn it into an NFT and you’ll be able to create the rules around it so that you will be able to monetize that directly as the creator of that photo. So anyone you know, if you put it up onto a marketplace, people will be able to use it and you will get paid royalties in how whatever shape or form you decide to create from that NFT operation.

Dave Michels 32:17
We are running out of time but I want to I want to wrap up before we before we end this with some general questions around the crypto market in general. Obviously you are not a Bitcoin maximalist what coins do you like? Are we in a bull run? Which kind of seems like a dumb question if you have to ask

Hugo Feiler 32:34
I’m not a Bitcoin maximalist. But I do think that Bitcoin is definitely the one to the one to follow. And the one to watch out for as the following and the fundamentals Other than that, we see ourselves as very much the sort of the the evolution beyond Bitcoin with minima created you know, we are proof of work like Bitcoin is we are hard capped as Bitcoin is as well. The only difference is that we don’t have the miners we, which is a centralizing feature, and we have every user is an equal. So effectively, we see ourselves as the successor to Bitcoin.

Dave Michels 33:09
Do you see lots of coins winning? Or is it a one coin gonna win all?

Hugo Feiler 33:14
The I think there will be lots of coins, but I think there will be far fewer base layer protocols, whether it is Bitcoin, a minima or just minima, I think there will won’t be need the need for lots of base layer protocols. There’s only one internet and lots of websites, I think that’s the way we see it as well, there’s going to be one base layer, maybe two, and then there will be lots of side chains that do specific things. So we see it quite as, as we see, there’s gonna be a lot of consolidation. And there’ll be a lot of projects that won’t get past the initial hype and excitement.

Dave Michels 33:50
All right. Well, I think that wraps up this episode. I want to thank you, Hugo, for joining us. We had a lot more questions we didn’t get to, but we try to keep things kind of minimal here. So thanks for joining. And be sure to tell all your friends about the talking heads podcast.

Evan Kirstel 34:02
will indeed. Thank you very much, guys. Great to be here. Well, that was a great discussion. I learned a lot about blockchain about base layer protocols. And about the future of crypto. What do you think, you know,

Dave Michels 34:18
as someone who co hosts a podcast with a with a guy who has his own coin, it was just great to have finally on the podcast, somebody who knows something about crypto.

Evan Kirstel 34:27
Why agrees because I am completely confused in general. Just a little bit less confused this time. So our next guest can share a lot of insight as well.

Dave Michels 34:37
Yeah, our next guest is Mike tesslar. Now we’ve actually had an episode where we said this exact line before. Our next guest is my test winner but it got rescheduled, and I think he got a little scared of the questions he knew we were gonna ask them. I got a ton of questions from Mike tesslar. He’s the founder and CEO of broadsoft, which Cisco acquired a few years back 2018 2019 just a legendary Man in our industry I think it’d be a really interesting conversation.

Evan Kirstel 35:03
Yeah, one of the godfathers of UCAS so should be a great guest and until that you get in the conversation. Oh man. We gotta get out of here.

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