Insider

Insider Report February 2025

March 03, 2025 by Dave Michels

Curated Enterprise Communications News and Insights from February 2025

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February 2025 was a surprisingly busy month. We kicked off the month in Barcelona with Integrated Systems Europe (covered in AV below). Then Michels attended Cisco Live EMEA (below) and CCW Berlin (in CX). Danto attended Collaboration Week NY (in AV).

Cisco Live EMEA: This was a big month for Cisco. Cisco Live EMEA took place with several announcements (some covered below): It reported strong 2Q earnings, its stock hit 25-year highs, its CPaaS solution was rated as a Leader in the new IDC Marketscape, its new Ceiling Mic Pro earned the Best Collaboration Solution of the Year award at ISE, and Webex received two IF design awards. All of this is atop its 40th birthday.

This got me thinking about how some companies transform — and some don’t. Microsoft and Intel boomed in the ’80s (Wintel), but only one remains a leader today. Microsoft missed mobile but caught internet, cloud, and now AI. Intel’s manufacturing has fallen years behind the leaders, and it missed mobile, GPUs, and AI.

Cisco has done well with transforming itself. It started with hardware and expanded into hardware and software and, more recently, hardware, software, and AI. Cisco intends to capitalize on the surging demand for AI infrastructure. The company is on track to meet its goal of $1B in AI infrastructure deals by 2025.

Main takeaway from Cisco Live EMEA is that Cisco is on fire. Good announcements, happy partners, great results. This was Jeetu Patel’s event. I didn’t realize that CEO Chuck only presents at the US version. Jeetu has done well at Cisco. When he arrived five years ago, it was a mess. The Collaboration team was in shambles. The pandemic was very good for Microsoft and Zoom, but not for Cisco. Jeetu (and Javed Khan) put together a strategy to get Webex back on track. Jeetu received a few promotions along the way, and today he is the company’s first Chief Product Officer. Jeetu is now responsible for network, security, and collaboration. Anurag Dhingra was elevated (again) and has network and Collaboration responsibilities. Snorre Kjesbu and Jay Patel lead Collaboration and CX, respectively.

Key themes in the keynotes were the pillars of AI-Ready Data Centers (to power AI workloads anywhere), Future-Proofed Workplaces (modernize anywhere people work), and Digital Resilience (security, assurance, and observability across the digital footprint).

Jeetu wants to align the Network, Security, and Collaboration teams more closely, and is playing the platform card. This is why ThousandEyes integrates with Webex and WiFi devices. Some new security products leverage network telemetry to “see” things cyber-only tools can’t. The new Webex codec uses network intelligence to deliver a high-quality experience over a low-bandwidth connection, and AI spans all its products.

The bad news is that things are going to get very confusing. “Agents” and “CX” were everywhere, including areas unrelated to the contact center. Cisco now sees itself as a CX company because its customers all have experiences. It was very difficult to sort out which of the CX sessions were CC-related.

I will also note that Cisco Live had some standout themes this year. With the new administration, many organizations reject or downplay remote work, and DEI is getting the boot. Both of these remain in effect at Cisco, and the event in Amsterdam also had a strong theme around sustainability. It was as if they didn’t get the January memo.

The Webex suite got a fair amount of attention at Cisco Live — at least parts of it. I didn’t see or hear much about Webex Events. LinkedIn will show you some of my posts from CiscoLive here. — Michels

General News

MDEP Arrives: It took much longer than expected, but the Microsoft Device Ecosystem Platform (MDEP) has arrived. Most of us first heard about it during the Microsoft’s EC23 keynote. This is Microsoft’s version of Android. Why not? Everyone else has a version of Android. It has initially arrived as a platform for MTRs, but MDEP is not part of Teams. It is a new operating system from Microsoft and will work its way into numerous use cases and devices, potentially even smartphones.

The Daves met with the MDEP pros during ISE, and it was clear that MTRs are just a starting point. It’s a logical starting point as Android-powered MTRs already exist and have legitimate security concerns. Microsoft is rapidly learning how to apply its standard of security, trust, and management to Android — add developers and manufacturers, and you have an OS ecosystem. Microsoft has already announced 11 hardware partners for MDEP.

Considering the popularity of Android today, it is not unreasonable to expect that MDEP implementations will soon outnumber Windows implementations. Microsoft followed a similar strategy with its Edge browser. It took the open-source parts of Chromium to create a proprietary browser that was better than IE. MDEP is not Google Play Store-certified, but is that important? Edge doesn’t support Chrome apps, either. Suddenly, Microsoft has a mobileOS.

Amazon Bids Farewell to Its Android App Store: Amazon will discontinue its app store for Android on August 20 this year. It will also discontinue its Coins digital currency, which could be used to purchase games and apps on the app store. The company will continue to focus on the Amazon Appstore for its Fire TV and Fire Tablet devices. Amazon has tried to compete with Google with an alternative app store ecosystem since 2011.

Michels expects Microsoft to attempt its own Android App store soon. MDEP started working its way into meeting rooms this month, but MDEP is a Microsoft OS initiative, not tied to Teams in any way. Michels calls the theoretical future App Store the “Work Store,” in contrast to Google’s consumer-oriented Play Store.

Google Pulls Back From Hardware: Google offers buyouts (not layoffs) to employees of the “Platforms & Devices” unit, which does Chrome and Android plus all the small hardware units (Pixel, Fitbit, Next and presumably the new VR glasses). There are 25k people in this team.

Apple Pulls Encryption: Apple has discontinued its Advanced Data Protection (ADP) feature for iCloud in the UK following a government requirement for backdoor access to user data. ADP was introduced in December 2022 and provided E2EE for iCloud data. Only users could decrypt their information. Now, new UK users cannot enable ADP, and existing users will be required to disable it. Both Apple and Apple users expressed disappointment over this development.

Backdoors tend to get hacked. Those that tend to ignore history get hacked. In 1994, Bill Clinton signed a US law called CALEA requiring FBI backdoors for data switches. Most network switches in use today have CALEA backdoors, even outside the US. Guess what? They have been widely exploited by bad guys. Most recently, the Chinese military used CALEA backdoors to hack Verizon, AT&T, and Lumen.

Apple had to either implement a backdoor for the UK or break E2EE. It chose the latter. For now, we stand tall protecting privacy over foolishness, but the story will repeat, and the outcome may change.

AI News

Insider Reports are Not Free Use for AI firms: A federal court ruling in the Thomson Reuters case has rejected “fair use” as a defense for AI training on unlicensed works. This decision sets a precedent, impacting both generative and non-generative AI, and shifts the power dynamics between AI developers and media companies. While the AI industry is unlikely to stop scraping unlicensed content, the focus will now be on remedies for rights holders.

Under copyright law, courts can award “actual damages and any additional profits of the infringer” up to $150,000 per infringement if “the infringement was committed willfully,” or up to $30,000 per infringement otherwise. How many infringements are there when AI developers scrape the entire internet? Given Judge Bibas’ rejection of “fair use,” scraping without consent is likely to be considered a “willful” act.

Although the exact fines or remedies are unknown, they are probably not enough to stop the race to general AI. But the likelihood of reaching the Supreme Court is x. To combine that with an upholding decision means x(y) — in other words, long odds. Furthermore, Congress has the power to overrule the Supreme Court’s decision should it become motivated to do so. Congress initially codified the four-factor “fair use” analysis used by the courts. There’s also the executive branch, and EVP Elon certainly has strong opinions on AI. Did we mention the fear of China’s advancements in AI? There’s no logical outcome here.

Google Introductory Price For Veo 2 Videos: Google has released pricing for its AI video-generating product Veo 2, which generates what they describe as high-quality videos from a text prompt for $0.50 per second. We expect this introductory price to increase greatly if the service becomes popular.

Grok This: Elon Musk’s xAI’s new Grok 3 went to the top of most AI leaderboards. AI benchmarking is increasingly complex (and dubious), but it appears Grok 3 is a bit better than OpenAI’s o1 (the public reasoning model). It does not appear that OpenAI or others have much of a first-mover advantage. The barrier to entry appears to be access to massive amounts of capital and GPUs. It will be the number of chips that really limit the number of players, especially huge models. Though chip-lght DeepSeek R1 is only 3% behind on the leaderboard.

This is just one of many problems for OpenAI. Having Musk as a nemesis was bad enough before we won the election.

Amazon Introduces Alexa+: This next-generation Echo is an AI-powered assistant that provides more natural and personalized interactions, reflecting the broader trend of conversational AI making its way into consumer and enterprise settings. Alexa+ can perform tasks such as ordering groceries, sending event invitations, and managing smart home devices. It is available for $19.99 monthly or free for Amazon Prime members, with early access starting in March. The service will be compatible with most existing Alexa devices, beginning with the Echo Show series. As Alexa+ improves contextual understanding and communication, people are becoming more adept at interacting with AI-driven assistants — skills that will likely translate into workplace settings where AI-powered communication tools and agents are becoming increasingly prevalent.

Meetings and AV

Integrated Systems Europe: ISE 2025 put up record-breaking numbers in Barcelona February 4-7, attracting 85,351 unique visitors from 168 countries — a 15.5% increase from the previous year. The event featured 1,605 exhibitors across a 92,000 sqm net show floor, its largest to date. ISE covered a wide gamut of technologies and featured a number of announcements of interest to TalkingPointz subscribers. Dave and David were at the record-setting ISE 2025. Before the event, we selected several solutions we intended to focus on. We have been sharing snippets on our channels since ISE, and will continue to do so until EC. We identified exhibitors we felt deserved more attention. These “Pick Hitz” are:

AudioCodes — highlighting its innovative use of device-based AI meeting summaries
Cisco — highlighting multiple solutions that meet the needs of the hybrid desktop
ClickShare by Barco — highlighting its BYOD solution and its interface with Microsoft Teams
Jabra — highlighting its new Panacast40VBS, which delivers a full, feature-rich codec for a BYOD price
Neat — highlighting how its modular capabilities allow it to cover rooms of any size
Nureva — highlighting its ability to pick up audio from any point in a room
Q-SYS — highlighting how its full stack technology covers not just rooms but the spaces in between
Zoom — highlighting its AI-based Meeting Reservation system — a great advancement in the industry

Attending ISE 2025 reminded Danto of the parable of the blind men and the elephant. How you experienced the event depended upon what parts of it you touched. It has grown too large for one person to get a full sense of the event. Especially considering the logistics: one-hour taxi lines, limited nearby accommodations, and the physical size of the event. (That’s one of the reasons we did the TalkingPointz PickHitz this year.) We have compiled a list of major AV/collaboration announcements at ISE below.

Barco Beats the PC Makers: Over the last couple of years we heard some PC manufacturers talking about “using every camera in the room” for optimizing video calls, but it turned out to be Barco that brought that feature to a public demonstration. At ISE, Barco showed ClickShare SmartFocus, an AI-powered feature that enhances meetings by utilizing in-room laptop cameras to provide dynamic views of participants, improving engagement for remote attendees. SmartFocus intelligently switches between room and individual laptop cameras based on conversation flow. The view of a participant’s laptop camera (which may not be aimed or focused correctly) may not make practical sense, but the concept that AI has a bundle of cameras available and can decide which shots help the meeting is a significant advance in room collaboration.
AudioCodes AI: AudioCodes has introduced its AI-First Intelligent Virtual Agent (IVA) platform, designed to enhance customer interactions by integrating advanced artificial intelligence capabilities. This platform offers features such as natural language understanding, voice recognition, and seamless integration with various communication channels. Additionally, it provides tools for analytics and real-time insights. AudioCodes will provide meeting summary capabilities by room (as opposed to the Microsoft user model). This means users of AudioCodes MTR systems can get these summaries regardless of individual Copilot subscriptions. Six months of this service are included with each purchase. The AudioCodes team sees this as a complimentary ramp to Microsoft Copilot — justifying AI to users not inclined to spend for it.
Neat New BYOD: At ISE, Neat announced a new solution for smaller rooms. It removed the Neat Pad from its Neat Bar (gen 1) and Neat Bar 2 and is calling the feature “Neat Select” to meet BYOD needs. Neat Select works as a BYOD-only device on both models — but still supports comprehensive network management capabilities through Neat Pulse. Interestingly, Neat also announced the upcoming end of Zoom certification on the Neat Bar (gen 1) — so, apparently, its future use will only be in BYOD mode.
Jabra New Bar: Jabra introduced a little brother to the Panacast 50 VBS. The Panacast 40 VBS boasts similar features intended for smaller rooms. Priced under $1,500 US, it will be one of the lowest-cost all-in-one Android devices on the market. It runs on MDEP and has two cameras acting as one. It also introduced the next generation of the Speak audio-puck.

Microsoft Announces New MDEP Partners: Microsoft’s MDEP team announced that Crestron and Owl Labs (and a list of other third-party OEM/ODM firms) have joined the MDEP program. This is significant in that Crestron and Owl do not currently have Android-based solutions. Microsoft is apparently adding partners even without current products to increase the pressure on firms that have not committed to MDEP.
New Shure Teams Solution: Shure has introduced IntelliMix Room Kits, comprehensive Microsoft Teams Room systems designed for larger meeting spaces. These kits feature Shure Ceiling Array microphones and speakers, AI-powered Huddly cameras, and pre-installed IntelliMix Room DSP software. It is interesting to observe a new MTR-certified system from a manufacturer that doesn’t make the video devices itself.
Maxhub Windows-Based Boards: MaxHub unveiled a 92-inch Ultra-Wide 5K display with a 21:9 aspect ratio. This display is compatible with major conferencing platforms and features a user interface optimized for its dimensions, offering an interactive experience for both in-room and remote participants.
Logitech Showed Its New Products: The Rally Board 65, an all-in-one, 65” portable video conferencing solution; and the Rally Camera Streamline Kit, a USB Pan Tilt Zoom (PTZ) video solution for quick access to presets. The Rally Board’s chief innovation is that it can be flipped to have the camera on top or on the bottom.
Barco and Neat Team Up: Barco and Neat announced that the Neat Bar 2 and Neat Bar Pro are now certified for Barco’s ClickShare Present and ClickShare Conference solutions. This collaboration ensures automatic switching with ClickShare CX-50 Gen 2, allowing users to initiate video calls from their laptops while using Neat’s camera and audio systems. Then, a couple of weeks after ISE, Barco Clickshare announced essentially the same partnership with Huddly.
Another New Bar: Insta360 introduced the Connect dual-camera AI video bar, marking its entry into the UC space. The device features a motorized 4K telephoto PTZ camera alongside a 4K wide-angle room camera, enabling picture-in-picture mode and an AI-enhanced whiteboard view that remains visible even when obstructed. It has all the standard auto-framing options and comes with a retail price of approximately $2,000, plus $600 for an optional touchscreen.
New HP Bar: HP launched a new video bar for small spaces — the Poly Studio V12 USB Video Bar. It is compatible with all the same platforms as other Poly USB bars, made with over 50% recycled plastic, and shipped in eco-friendly packaging.
HP and Google Show Latest Starline: Google’s long-promised Project Starline was shown at ISE in its latest iteration. Our industry has not shown appreciation for outstanding one-to-one experiences. This latest version of Starline from HP (expected later this year) will support Zoom for multi-party 2D calls. Probably the most expensive Zoom Room. Though the experience is phenomenal, neither of the Daves expect widespread adoption. No dates, specs, or prices are available at this time.
New Owl Certifications: Owl Labs’ Meeting Owl 3 and Owl Bar products have achieved certification for Microsoft Teams. The Meeting Owl 4+ is currently undergoing the certification process. The Meeting Owl never gets the credit it deserves for resurrecting the Center of Table camera phenomenon before any of the other current players even thought of it.
Crestron Multi-View: Crestron’s latest release in the DM NVX series will serve as a baby processor for medium-size video walls, eliminating the need to purchase separate processors to combine video signals.
NetSpeek: A startup called NetSpeek attended its first industry event since coming out of stealth. It has a generative AI platform that can be used to manage collaboration and AV installations using natural language. It garnered a lot of attention at the show, mostly from an industry that is craving for generative AI to do something for the industry other than meeting summaries. (Danto was an early advisor to the startup and helped refine its messaging.)

Cisco Live EMEA: Workspace Designer: Cisco also showed off an enhanced Workplace Designer tool that facilitates the design of meetings rooms for Webex or Microsoft Teams. It’s a powerful and intuitive tool for various room types and sizes. Cisco New BYOD: As previously discussed, Cisco Live has officially announced a new solution for smaller rooms. It removed the touch panel from its room bar and called it the Room Bar BYOD. At about $1.5K, it works as a BYOD-only device — but has network management and appliance capabilities that become active with the purchase of a controller. The Room Bar Pro can be managed centrally with Cisco’s Control Hub and ThousandEyes. This is a clever and disruptive play. Customers have a lot of choices for room bars, but not that many offer a seamless upgrade path to an appliance.

Collaboration Week NY 2025: This three-day event, “hosted” by Cisco’s NY HQ, Crestron’s NY CEC, and Pace University, brought together industry leaders to explore the evolving landscape of collaboration technologies. At Cisco, Mark Peterson of Shen, Milsom & Wilke and Cisco’s Mark Miller shared their perspectives on the future of room design and how we’re beginning to use the data for real-time adjustments. At Crestron, industry analyst Kevin Kieller, Crestron’s Brad Hintze, and Zoom’s Eugenio Bayo examined the role of AI in collaboration and AV, dissecting how artificial intelligence is reshaping the way teams communicate and engage. Meanwhile, at Pace University, the discussions were about how millennials and the next generation experience collaboration and are learning to join our industry through courses there.

Participants from dozens of companies (analysts, manufacturers, consultants, vendors, and end-users) engaged in open discussions under the IMCCA’s vendor-agnostic umbrella, reinforcing the industry’s collaborative spirit. As the event chairperson, Danto opened each day and ensured that the event remained inclusive and open. The event ultimately served as a dynamic forum for fostering partnerships, exchanging ideas, and shaping the future of workplace collaboration.

Huddly and MAXHUB: Huddly and MAXHUB partnered to provide video solutions for meeting rooms. This collaboration includes room kits featuring Huddly cameras and MAXHUB’s XCore Kits and audio devices certified for Microsoft Teams. Huddly has had a very … ”complicated” past, but its current strategy is to provide its tech in bundles with other companies.

Microsoft Teams Multi-Camera View: Microsoft Teams Rooms on Windows now supports multiple camera views, enabling up to four single-stream USB cameras to capture in-room participants in large and complex spaces like multi-purpose rooms and classrooms. This feature allows remote participants to view multiple camera feeds simultaneously in Gallery View and switch between different perspectives as needed. To experience this functionality, users must run Teams Rooms on Windows version 5.2 or later, have a Teams Rooms Pro license, and be equipped with the necessary hardware. Logitech is supporting this in its CollabOS 1.14.

Microsoft Enables Recording From Devices: Microsoft has introduced a new feature in Teams Rooms for Windows, allowing users to start or stop meeting recordings directly from the device with version 5.2 of the Teams Rooms app, requiring a Teams Rooms Pro license. The feature supports scheduled, ad hoc, and channel meetings but is limited to participants within the same tenant as the organizer. For “Meet Now” or whiteboard sessions, users must invite themselves to access the recording later via Teams on their computer or mobile device. It’s complicated to permit and activate, but now much easier to initiate the recording.

AOSP and MDEP Are Here: Microsoft’s transition to Android Open Source Project (AOSP) management finally took place after a number of postponements. AudioCodes was actually the first out with AOSP support, Logitech has it in private beta, Cisco has it in its Room OS, and Jabra uses AOSP it in its newest release for their Panacast 50 VBS. That release also made Jabra the winner of the MDEP race as the first to MDEP in GA. Yealink now intends to release its MDEP firmware in March, and AudioCodes likely soon after. We can also report that Danto tested the Zoom Room app on the Jabra Panacast 50 VBS running MDEP Android and that worked too (you can see it here.)

Another Pexip Partnership: Pexip and DTEN have partnered to enhance Zoom Rooms by enabling seamless participation in Microsoft Teams meetings directly from DTEN devices. This integration is available as an add-on for DTEN customers with an Orbit Pro support plan and offers features such as dual-screen support, in-room content sharing, and whiteboarding.

Zoom End of Support: Zoom proactively alerted/reminded customers that some previously certified devices will be deemed “End of Certified” and will move into Zoom’s End-of-Life support process (which it’s increased from 30 months to 36 months). There are devices in this category for various reasons from Crestron, DTEN, Extron, EPOS, HP | Poly, Neat, and Yealink — with more details here.

Amazon Zooms: Amazon selected Zoom for enterprise meetings. Zoom will replace Chime, which launched in 2017 after it acquired Biba in 2016. Lumen and Vonage were launch partners for Chime, but neither kept it very long. Chime was also available to AWS customers, but Amazon reported Chime had low external adoption.

At first glance, it seems intuitive that Amazon selected Zoom over Microsoft. The companies compete on many levels, including over employees. However, Amazon is also deploying M365 internally for Email and Office. This is effectively an active rejection of its paid and licensed Teams. Amazon communicated to employees that they can use Teams and Webex when needed, but Zoom is to be the company’s standard.

The Chime SDK, the AWS CPaaS offering, is unrelated to the Chime app. At one time, Amazon intended to rebuild the Chime app with Chime SDK services. Alianza, for example, built a reasonable meetings app using the Chime SDK.

Customer Experience

Cisco Live EMEA: Cisco has unveiled AI Assistant and AI Agent. AI Assistant is designed to assist human agents. It provides real-time transcription, summarization, multi-language support, conversation analysis, and suggested responses, enabling agents to resolve issues more quickly and effectively. AI Agent, expected this quarter, will be capable of handling customer inquiries. Initially, it will support nine major European languages, with plans for additional knowledge connectors and integrations with third-party platforms.

None of that is too surprising. Cisco has been investing heavily in Webex CC and AI. The big surprise was when Cisco announced that Contact Center Enterprise Release 15 is coming. CCE is legacy no more. R15 brings AI Agent and AI Assistant capabilities, new digital channels, and performance upgrades. Lastly, Cisco is introducing a Bring Your Own Virtual Agent framework, enabling organizations to integrate various AI tools into their contact centers.

CCW Berlin: Michels attended CCW Berlin, a regional CX event that is in no way related to CCW CX events in the US. This was a solid event. All the major players were there. Excellent stands. Quite a few hop-ons like headsets, furniture, and even a humidifier company. Good sessions, active theaters, and lots of chocolate. Most things were in German, but a very bilingual event overall. Not a lot of announcements. Regional shows will become more important again as borders and privacy become higher priorities. Michels did several posts on LI.

Five9 GCP: Five9 expanded its partnership with Google Cloud by making its services globally available on the Google Cloud Marketplace. Five9 also introduced an updated version of its AI Agents tailored for Google Cloud, enhancing self-service capabilities.

Five9 Has a New Look: Five9 felt that the company and industry are changing so much that a new look was necessary. The previous logo tied the brand to the cloud, which was the future. Now, the company has eliminated a graphic and selected a new font, a richer shade of blue, and a citrus accent (is citrus a color?). This new look is intended to communicate a brand that offers seamless customer outcomes, joy, hyper-personalization, and AI-driven experiences.

Logos are really hard for CC/CX — especially because everything is in flux. Can’t use a phone (just one channel), can’t use a cloud (one deployment), can’t use a headset (don’t need it for text), and you certainly can’t use a human (at least not a paid one).

As technologies mature, we tend to move away from the tech and toward outcomes. We saw this when videoconferencing transitioned to meetings. TalkingPointz covered this in 2023 in Does CCaaS Matter? Both UCaaS and CCaaS are becoming deployment options (subsets) of UC and CC, though cloud-delivered will remain the default for most and smaller implementations.

Does CCaaS Matter? Five9 dropping its iconic cloud logo is yet another example of how CCaaS is distancing itself from the cloud. Most providers now insist on using the term CX instead of CCaaS. Webex and Zoom, the newest (major) entrants, never embraced “CCaaS” in their branding. Cisco just remembered its premises-based solutions this month, and NICE publicly admitted that some of those old legacy systems will be really hard to displace.

Talkdesk Down Under: Talkdesk expanded its global network of regional cloud deployments with its new Australia Regional Cloud. APAC customers can now host Talkdesk in-region, allowing them to comply with local and industry-specific data residency and privacy requirements.

Avaya Disappearing: Patrick Dennis, named Avaya CEO last September, has a narrower focus than his predecessors. Masarek and Chirico wanted Avaya to become a leader again, but Dennis appears to be more focused on profitability. He has implemented significant cutbacks in staffing and portfolio. Avaya has never been so slim. The company is gearing toward long-term, profitable maintenance of existing, large customers. Simply maintaining the portfolio could be a lucrative operation as many of its customers will likely continue.

Avaya closed its Dubai office this month. It was once the home of “Avaya International,” which managed all markets outside of the Americas. The GMs of Avaya International and Avaya South America are gone. Most of the Avaya International Team is at TeKnowledge, specializing in skilling, advisory, and tech managed services. There was also a significant RIF in Avaya UK this month.

Avaya also ended its SIP Trunking and CPaaS services. Existing customers can continue until April 28, 2025. Avaya is recommending customers bring their own carriers to AXP, which now has a 200-user minimum. Avaya also ended its AXP Voice Recording and integration with X.

The private cloud, enterprise CC business is much larger than most realize. The sector is mature, so it doesn’t make a lot of headlines, but Gartner still figures there are more agents on private cloud systems than CCaaS systems. About 50 vendors are competing over CCaaS, and only a few are left with the dull other half. Genesys essentially got out of the business a few years ago. Cisco has been quietly maintaining its legacy base, but this month announced a new release is coming. Mitel sees an opportunity and launched a Unify-heritage CC late last year.

An Epic Vertical for Td: Talkdesk has found focusing on verticals to be effective. The new Talkdesk Healthcare Experience Cloud puts agent tools and call controls directly in Epic to create a unified agent experience in healthcare contact centers. In 2023, Talkdesk joined the Epic Workshop co-innovation program. Talkdesk Copilot was embedded in Epic in 2024. Now, mutual Talkdesk and Epic customers give agents embedded call controls, conversation management tools, and persistent interaction context, meaning there’s no need to leave Epic to manage calls.

GoTo AI QM: GoTo introduced AI Quality Management for its GoTo Connect Contact Center. It’s a nice addition, but a little behind the pack. It uses generative AI to automate reporting and analyze 100% of the calls. It’s near real-time with actionable insights.

UC and Messaging

Skyped: Microsoft is shutting down Skype, the messaging and calling app it acquired 14 years ago for over $8B, and encouraging those users to migrate to its Teams platform. This makes perfect sense and no sense at the same time.

Skype grew like a weed because it was free, easy, secure/private, and versatile. It defined modern internet communications, and integrated with PSTN services. But that’s not why Microsoft acquired it. Microsoft probably was never interested in hosting free comms, but Skype brought critical cloud-telephony know-how to Microsoft.

No PBX maker made the transition to UCaaS without an acquisition. Today, Skype is a double orphan, abandoned by Microsoft and most of its users. Skype peaked around 300 million users in 2013. The $8B pricetag was always suspicious for a firm with little revenue. Cisco learned to UCaaS by acquiring BroadSoft for less than half of that price, and that business continues to generate revenue. The biggest threat to Skype was realistically Google Hangouts, which disappeared for inexplicable reasons. But Hangouts was never secure, and didn’t have PSTN services.

Skype never really fit into Microsoft. Before acquisition, Skype was starting to target business users. Microsoft quickly killed those plans. The consumer play never fit. One of the first things Microsoft did was kill its security and privacy features.

However, the Skype brand was valuable. It had that coveted verb status, at least until Microsoft renamed Lync (one of its better product names) to Skype for Business (one of its dumbest product names). Skype, or even Skype for Business, are better names than Teams — Teams is like Skype for Business because it has cloud, PSTN, persistent messaging, and video, but common nouns are much better brand names. Have you seen the new Buick Car?

Microsoft thinks it can serve business and consumer users with Teams. That seems unlikely. While Teams Free offers some clever features, it lacks the phone-calling functionality that allowed users to call mobile and landline numbers and receive phone calls with a Skype phone number. Its messaging won’t be as secure as WhatsApp or Signal. Also, Skype was completely platform agnostic — that’s never been true for Teams.

Microsoft killing Skype makes perfect sense because there is no more value to it. It makes no sense because the product they acquired was a superior product, for consumers, than almost anything else available today.

RingCentral AIR: Most of the AI announcements are “me too” or “same here.” RingCentral AI Receptionist uses GenAI to answer questions and transfer calls. Yes, it’s similar to CC IVAs, but cheaper and easier. RC is marketing this as a UC rather than CC feature. Its roadmap promises more advanced features such as a scheduling or reservations. Embedded in RingEX as an optional add-on feature, it is currently limited to English.

8x8 AfterSale Assist: This is a clever form of specialization. AfterSale Assist combines video, voice, messaging, and AI insights to manage after-sale activities. Usually when we talk verticals in comms, we talk about government, education, retail, and healthcare. 8x8 identified another pain point for businesses: complex post-sale interactions.

AfterSale Assist combines elements of CCaaS, UCaaS, AI, and CPaaS. It offers staff guidance on product setup and guided assistance over one-way video. By increasing the effectiveness of communications, it can reduce operational costs and time delays for staff and customers. It can also tailor or personalize experiences, and 8x8 threw in proactive services with SMS. Customers can even schedule consultations through the 8x8 Intelligent Customer Assistant.

TalkingPointz on Alianza/Metaswitch: TalkingPointz published a Deep Dive note on how this little ski company in Utah plans to become the biggest supplier for CSPs globally. Acquiring Metaswitch from Microsoft has movie-plot potential if they succeed — and they just might get away with it. The next Deep Dive will be our annual industry snapshot report from EC25.

Hybrid Cloud: This month, Mitel and Zoom launched their integration. Hybrid-Cloud is the new thing. The UCaaS bundle (voice, team chat, and meetings) is a suite [sic] deal when it works, but it’s surprisingly common for customers to go with best-of-breed apps for the different workloads. This mix-n-match approach can involve multiple cloud-providers or [gasp] premises-based/private-cloud solutions. That latter category has a huge installed base, and they all need Team Chat and Meetings. Slack still has a big base, and they need Telephony and Meetings, and so on. We have to stop viewing UCaaS as a zero-sum solution and prioritize integrations.

The Business Section

Dmitry Netis (LI, email) of The Benchmark Company provides Insider subscribers with financial insights quarterly. Dmitry leads M&A advisory and serves as a Managing Director and Co-Head of Technology Investment Banking at Benchmark. Mr. Netis has been immersed in enterprise communications for over 15 years as one of the first Wall Street research analysts covering this space, serving institutional and private equity clients. Benchmark offers VC investment, minority recap, and M&A services.

Increased uncertainty at the start of the year … M&A activity hits its lowest levels since 2015. In November’s issue of TP, we outlined why 2025 was shaping up to be a stronger and more favorable year for business activity, M&A, and consumer confidence. However, that optimism now appears premature. While stocks and yields surged at the end of the year in what was termed the “Trump rally,” and most economic metrics — excluding inflation — looked favorable, giving hope for pent-up activity in 2025, the first six weeks of the new U.S. administration have introduced significant policy shifts. Tariffs on Mexico and Canada, among other changes, have prompted investors to pause and assess the potential consequences. Since the inauguration, U.S. stocks and yields have remained largely unchanged, possibly because investors anticipate that many policies may be delayed, reversed, or modified.

Trade policy uncertainty and moderating inflation — or rather, markets no longer pricing in interest rate cuts that could drive 10-year Treasury yields to 3.5% — have led to an environment of increased uncertainty. This hesitation is particularly evident in business decision-making, as companies shy away from major transformative actions in unpredictable conditions. Reflecting this sentiment, U.S. merger and acquisition activity in January hit its lowest level since 2015, according to news reports.

2025 outlook: Consumer spending concerns weigh on markets. Uncertainty surrounding trade policy may be restraining companies, which is problematic for business. However, in the short term, it could create a better supply-demand balance for lenders. Walmart’s unexpectedly weak earnings, particularly after a strong fourth quarter last year, rattled markets. The company’s stock fell more than 5% after it projected fiscal year sales growth of just 3%-4%, with its 2026 earnings outlook significantly below expectations. This raises concerns that the average consumer may be financially stretched. Potential impact of boycotts/blackouts related to DEI either witnessed or planned for this spring by employees of Target, Walmart, Amazon, and Costco could only add fuel to the fire, complicating matters, on top of declining consumer sentiment. The Dow dropped more than 500 points on February 20 in response.

Stocks and bond yields exhibited an inverse correlation until the sharp selloff in late February, with equities struggling as the 10-year U.S. Treasury yield climbed above 4.5%. Higher rates, a strong dollar, and weaker growth expectations have weighed on stocks, particularly in rate-sensitive sectors. The first half of 2025 is expected to be volatile due to headwinds from new U.S. policies on immigration and tariffs, government efficiency measures, fading demand, and affordability challenges. Consequently, investors are increasingly looking to cheaper foreign stocks, with China benefiting from AI developments and potential stimulus, while Europe remains optimistic amid geopolitical and fiscal shifts.

Not all markets are feeling the brunt of macro: AI buildout continues to shine. A multi-year secular trend in AI-driven data center buildouts is fueling unprecedented investment, expected to exceed $320B in 2025, according to Morgan Stanley Equity Research. Hyperscaler capital expenditures (CapEx) are projected to see significant increases, with five leading hyperscalers — AWS, Meta, Microsoft, Google, and Oracle — collectively spending $280B on AI infrastructure, up from $220B in 2024, representing a 27% increase. Investment is expected to grow by another 13% in 2026. Microsoft leads with an $84B spending plan, followed by Google at $64B, AWS at $62B, Meta at $55B, and Oracle at $15B. Additional AI investments from companies such as Tesla, telecom operators, and Chinese and Indian firms further underscore this trend.

AI costs declining thanks to DeepSeek: A Chinese open-source AI model, DeepSeek, which emerged in January and sent shockwaves across equity markets (Nasdaq lost a trillion dollars in one day as the news broke), had people rethink the future of various AI models and their potential commoditization aspects. DeepSeek illustrates the potential for efficiency gains, which in turn foster greater competition and drive wider adoption of AI.

In our view, the DeepSeek development is an example of dramatic efficiencies gained through innovation, which ultimately drives incremental demand for AI. Rapid declines in the cost of computing during the 1990s provide a useful parallel to what we are seeing now. In the 1990s, the newer computing technology — advances in memory and semiconductors and the shift to personal computing (PC) — persistently drove the pace at which companies replaced their legacy workflows and capital expenditures through better and more efficient computing infrastructure that matched the price of goods. If DeepSeek reflects a similar phenomenon, we may be seeing early signs of the cost of capital for AI starting to come down rapidly, making it a utility but supporting the outlook for more favorable and ubiquitous business spending on AI applications, causing the total consumption of AI to rise.

Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff kept that beat going by quipping: “The real treasure of AI isn’t the UI or the model — they’ve become commodities. Just like oxygen for us, what breathes life into AI is the data and metadata that describes the data to the model. The future’s fortune is in our data. Data is the new gold.” Applying various vertical-specific techniques and customized workflows through data-driven value-added services is ultimately the value that CX vendors will need to offer to retain relevancy in the marketplace. Mining, maintaining, and customizing that data to customer workflows will drive competitive advantage for vendors while processing it using a plethora of AI LLM models will be tables stakes.

Satya says AI will kill SaaS? Lastly, I can't help but comment about a topic on LinkedIn that Dave Michels has offered his musings on in late December. It started off by saying, “One of the most revered CEOs of business software believes that AI will kill SaaS.” He attributed it to Microsoft’s Satya Nadella, reminded the reader of Salesforce’s 2001 campaign that SaaS would kill software, and shared how much he liked Satya’s provocative style. “Satya thinks SaaS is doomed,” Dave concluded, reasoning that “this is what tech does: it solves problems with a new approach, which eventually will be replaced by another new approach, and so on.” I always find Dave’s posts thought-provoking and engaging in public discourse. In my opinion, this is a topic that will be argued to decades to come, hence the weight it carries in my book. I felt compelled to add to it: I agree with both Dave and Satya. GenAI is following a similar path of computing infrastructure buildout and the efficiencies that come with it, ushering in a new age of the industrialization of the internet that is bigger than what transpired in the 1990s.

AI is steadily dismantling the traditional SaaS model, fundamentally altering how businesses interact with software. This transformation is occurring in three distinct phases:

Phase 1 (current): AI as a co-pilot

Right now, AI functions as an assistant, enhancing existing software by making it more efficient. Examples include GitHub Copilot for developers, Gamma for presentations, and Harvey for legal research. SaaS companies currently view AI as a value-add rather than a threat, believing it improves their offerings. However, they are unknowingly preparing for a far bigger shift.

Phase 2 (next 2-3 years): The rise of AI agents

AI will move from being a co-pilot to an autonomous operator, executing complex tasks without human intervention. Instead of users navigating software like Tableau for data analysis or Meta’s Ad Manager for campaign optimization, AI agents will handle these tasks directly when prompted. This will disrupt SaaS companies by unbundling the expertise they have long integrated into their products.

Phase 3 (3-5 years from now): Software becomes invisible

As AI agents bypass traditional human interfaces, the need for dashboards, buttons, and menus will diminish. SaaS companies have long bundled software, workflow, and expertise into user-friendly interfaces, but AI eliminates the need for these entirely. Most SaaS incumbents fail to see this coming because it’s not a competition of better software — it’s a fundamental shift where software is no longer manually operated by humans. Did you catch the recent video of two bots, initially conversing in human language, switching to a secret machine-only language as soon as they realized they were both artificial? What looked like a scene from a dystopian sci-fi movie, the hotel chatbot suggested switching to “Gibberlink,” a secret mode of communication. The voice interaction feature introduced into Grok 3, allowing users to engage with the AI using voice commands and receive spoken responses, is equally breathtaking.

The big shift: Democratization of software

At the same time, the barriers to developing custom internal software are collapsing. Previously, companies had to choose between expensive custom development or off-the-shelf SaaS. Now, AI coding assistants allow businesses to create tailored software solutions in days rather than months — eliminating the need for many SaaS subscriptions. Why pay thousands for a CRM like HubSpot when a company can build a customized version over a weekend? The same features, perfectly tailored to your workflow, with no ongoing subscription costs. This democratization of software creation means every company becomes a potential software producer rather than just a consumer. The specialized knowledge that SaaS companies monopolized is now available to anyone with access to an AI coding agent and domain expertise!

The unfolding SaaS decline … who will survive?

SaaS went from $1M to build a minimum viable product to hundreds of millions for a more versatile, heavily customized SaaS product, to basically free overnight. SaaS companies may not immediately recognize the impact. Initially, daily active users (DAUs) might stay strong, but engagement with individual features will start to mysteriously decline. Companies will require fewer software seats, and customer inquiries will shift from “How do I use this feature?” to “Can this integrate with my AI agent?” or worse: “We built our own version that better fits our workflow.” The winners won’t necessarily be those adding AI features the fastest. Instead, survival will depend on companies exposing their capabilities through AI-friendly APIs and becoming the most reliable sources of execution in their respective domains. Additionally, SaaS pricing models will likely shift from monthly subscriptions to outcome-based billing, where customers pay per outcome or task.

The trillion-dollar question

The biggest uncertainty is whether tech giants like Microsoft, Salesforce, Adobe, and Atlassian can successfully adapt to this shift or if they will struggle like past industry leaders that failed to embrace paradigm shifts. Meanwhile, startups that embrace AI-driven automation will be best positioned to thrive in this new landscape. SaaS isn’t dying all at once — it’s being dismantled piece by piece, workflow by workflow, as AI redefines the software industry.

Voice AI Startup ecosystem exploding.

Satya is right. Faster data processing leads to a more agile information environment, streamlining workflows, and breaking down barriers between applications and AI-led workflows. We’re seeing an endless number of Voice AI startups pop up onto the marketplace — have a look at Insight Partners’ Voice AI mappings, Andreesen Horowitz’s Voice AI mappings, and VC Cafe's The State of Voice AI curated periodicals. Whilst the odds of their survival seem low, the investment dollars (and subsequent returns) chasing them seem incredibly resilient. The new class of Googles, Amazons, and Facebooks are being born right now — and investors who are reading the pages of history and seeing a greater chance of making money at the front end don’t want you to think they’re filled with greed and delusion.

The new customer service AI apps worth highlighting.

Zingly.ai, an AI-first digital CX platform, has raised $18M — the founders hailing from Five9 and Avaya. Chilean video-first contact center startup Videsk recently announced expansion into North America (riding Zoom’s video-first tide). Others include Retell AI (call centers) and Sierra, founded by Bret Taylor (former co-CEO of Salesforce, CTO of Facebook and current chairman of OpenAI), which has raised hundreds of millions at a $4B valuation. Lastly, Cresta, highlighted in our November issue, raised a whopping $125M Series D round, bringing total funding to $282M at a pre-money valuation of $660M.

A recap of the most recent quarter’s UC/CC/CX sector news.

Fourth-quarter 2024 was one of the weakest on record for the UC, CC, and CX sectors. Despite profitability and debt levels improving, growth rates have slowed considerably. Even at the marquee entities like NICE and Five9, things felt out of place — investors felt the weakness with their dollars. CCaaS growth was guided down to 12% and 9%-10% for 2025, respectively, from ~15% organic growth in 2024 (after factoring in respective LiveVox and Acqueon acquisitions). UCaaS was projected to grow between flat and ~5%. CPaaS was guided to 7%-8% organic growth at Twilio and 8%-11% at Bandwidth versus 9% and 15% organic growth in 2024, respectively.

NICE and Five9 delivered CX cloud revenue of $1.98M (up 25% YoY). Ex-LiveVox contribution of roughly $142M in revenue, the business grew about 15% organically. The 2025 bogey is 12% year-over-year growth — not impressive relative to past results, but signaling the slowdown in the market. Did the mighty Barak Eilam, former CEO of NICE, see this transformation coming earlier than anyone? One can only wonder, but he surely appears to have timed his exit perfectly. Anecdotal evidence suggests most CCaaS players are currently suffering from market slowdown, likely in the wake of Agentic AI, which is partially freezing the market. Five9’s implied top-line growth in 2025 is 11% on roughly $1.14B in revenue expected by the Street in 2025 (ex-Acqueon the organic growth is more like 9%).

Twilio delivered fourth-quarter results that were roughly in line with their pre-announcement and guided fiscal 2025 to a high-single-digit growth rate and expanding operating margins. Fourth quarter saw stronger SMS and voice CPaaS revenue (up 11% YoY), with strong contribution from retail (given the holiday shopping season) and political messaging. The company reached record operating margins of 16.5% and GAAP profitability for the first time in its history. Management telegraphed an ability to expand OMs to low-20s by 2027. Owning Comms API plus customer data (CDP) appears to position Twilio well for monetization of agentic AI streams, echoing Benioff’s strategy at Salesforce that helps enable data-driven, AI-powered CX applications.

Cisco saw 4Q collaboration revenue growing 1% YoY driven by growth in contact center, CPaaS offerings, and collaboration devices, partially offset by a decline in on-prem Webex offerings. In the third quarter, collaboration revenue saw a 3% decline, partially offset by growth in contact center and CPaaS offerings.

In conclusion … Much of this sector weakness, in our view, can be chalked up to AI-driven transformation of software and CX that is now well underway. The next few years will determine which companies can adapt and which will struggle to remain relevant in an increasingly AI-dominated landscape. SaaS, as we know it, is evolving — and those who embrace the change will lead the next era of enterprise technology.

A New PBX Vendor: Forerunner Technologies, an NEC partner, has acquired assets of the NEC premises-based UC and CC solutions. As you may recall, last year, NEC announced its intent to exit the UC business. It sold UNIVERGE Blue cloud to its wholesaler service provider Intermedia. The future of its PBX business was uncertain … until now.

Effective immediately, Forerunner fully assumes responsibility for all UNIVERGE SV and SL product families, as well as the UNIVERGE 3C solution in North America and LATAM. This includes all service agreements, contracts, and support arrangements. Forerunner intends to continue selling and enhancing the hardware, endpoints, and CC applications. NEC Japan will continue supporting Forerunner with hardware procurement until December 2025. For now, NEC will continue to support its EMEA customers directly. It wasn’t long ago that NEC was the largest vendor in PBX ports.

Humane’s Carcass acquired by HP: HP acquired the remaining assets of hardware startup Humane, the maker of the ill-fated AI Pin. The sale price was $240M, less than half of what the startup raised from VCs. The $500 AI Pins can no longer be purchased, and the sold ones stopped working on February 28. That means no more calling, messaging, or AI queries/responses. The Humane AI Pin is only good for popping balloons.

HP announced the newly created HP IQ, an innovation lab, that will house Humane’s founders and some engineers. HP wants to be an AI player and thinks Humane’s carcass is just the trick. The staff will be tasked with finding AI features for PCs, printers, and connected conference rooms. Not the future these developers envisioned a year ago. HP offered some of Humane’s engineers 30%-70% pay increases plus HP stock and bonus plans. Most employees were let go.

Zendesk Local Measure: Zendesk announced that it has signed a definitive agreement to acquire Local Measure, a provider of CCaaS and a long-time AWS partner. This is a bold CX move that accelerates Zendesk’s expansion into larger, more complex service environments, enhances its AI voice capabilities, and strengthens its integration with Amazon Connect.

This is also a breath of fresh air because it’s about voice … been waiting for voice-related news for a while. Local Measure’s technology is built for high-volume, complex service environments. It enables businesses to implement sophisticated call routing, leverage AI-powered automation, unify inbound service and outbound sales and marketing efforts, and provide real-time insights that improve service quality.

Leadership Changes

RingCentral announced Kira Makagon as its new President and COO. Kira was previously the Chief Innovation Officer and has been at RingCentral for over 13 years. Esther Yoon is no longer the VP of Product and Industry Marketing at RingCentral.

Mike Kourey is no longer the CFO at Dialpad. He is now sits on its Board of Directors, and Brett Reed is the new Interim CFO. Kourey has a track record of five IPOs, so the change suggests DP has delayed its IPO plans. Five9 announced its CFO, Barry Zwarenstein, is retiring.

After 21 years, Merijn te Booij has left Genesys. He held numerous positions there and departs as EVP GM of Employee Engagement Business Unit. He leaves a legacy of contributions at Genesys, including its shitpile logo.

Barak Eilam has joined the Payoneer Board of Directors.

Instant Intelligence named Jim Chirico its new CEO. “Jim is a proven technology executive who oversaw the cloud-focused strategy for Avaya, which served 90% of the Fortune 500.” Sure, if “cloud-focused” includes aspiration. It’s likely true that Avaya was servicing 90% of the F500 when he started.

Meet Us

After both Dave and David attended ISE in Barcelona in February, both Daves will again be together at Enterprise Connect in Orlando, Florida, March 17-20. If you plan to be at that event and haven’t scheduled a briefing with us, please reach out. Here are direct links to DM’s and DD’s sessions. Let us know if you need a discount code for full event registration.

Dave Michels is Founder and Chief Protagonist at TalkingPointz and Editor in Chief of the Insider Report. [email protected]. David Danto is AV Aficionado at TalkingPointz. [email protected].

Goodreads

Why Is This C.E.O. Bragging About Replacing Humans With A.I.? Most large employers play down the likelihood that bots will take our jobs. Then there’s Klarna, a darling of tech investors.
Inside the Bust That Took Down Pavel Durov — and Upended Telegram The Russian-born CEO styles himself as a free-speech crusader and a scourge of the surveillance state. Here’s the real story behind Pavel Durov’s arrest and what happened next.
X blocks links to Signal, the encrypted messaging service Signal has been a primary method of communication for federal workers looking to blow the whistle on DOGE.
Open source LLMs hit Europe’s digital sovereignty roadmap A new program to develop a series of “truly” open source LLMs covering all European Union languages.
AT&T Charged This 17-Year-Old $900 So He Took Down Their Network What started as a billing dispute became one of the wildest hacks in history.
Apple pulls data protection tool after UK government security row The UK can’t handle E2E encryption, so Apple will turn it off there. Will the US be next?
All of the announcements from Amazon’s Alexa Plus event The Amazon echo on generative AI steroids will be out soon.
Meta warns that it will fire leakers in leaked memo, Zuck gets very upset when there are abuses of private information.
Starlink poised to take over $2.4 billion Air Traffic control contract Embarrassing that the Dept of Govt Efficiency squandered all that time on layoffs. Odd to be rooting for Verizon.
We bullied HP into a minor act of disenshittification Despite HP’s contempt for its printer customers, the company ditched the mandatory 15-minute wait time that it imposed on telephone-based support.
Google’s Sergey Brin Urges Workers to the Office ‘At Least’ Every Weekday Sergey has the power and authority to change Google’s three-day-a-week policy, yet doesn’t.

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By Dave Michels

Dave is an independent analyst and founder of TalkingPointz which is focused on enterprise communications. In addition to this (free and paid) content on TalkingPointz, he contributes to industry sites, can be found at major industry events, and provides advisory services to vendors and financial analysts.